Remodeling the Ivory Tower: Social Science for Social Justice Launch Event Transcript

The recording of the event is available here.

SPEAKERS

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him, Meredith Clark (Editor), Delayna Spencer (Sage Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her, Kiren Shoman (Senior Vice President at Sage), Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her, Jason Arday (Editor)

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Kiren Shoman (Senior Vice President at Sage)  00:16

Okay, I'm seeing people are starting to come in, which is fantastic. We're just going to hold a couple more moments before we kick off, but numbers are piling in really fast. So, thanks, everybody for coming on time. Give it a few more seconds, All right. Great. Well, welcome everybody to this event. I'm really excited that you're all here for Remodeling the Ivory Tower, Social Science for Social Justice event, I want to just very briefly introduce myself. And then I will be handing over so my name is Kiren Shoman. I'm Senior Vice President at Sage based in London. And my pronouns are She/Her, and I'll just be doing a brief some words of welcome to all of you, as we launch the Sage Social Science for Social Justice book series with a really wonderful lineup of speakers. But I thought it would be useful to just give you a few words about Sage for those of you who might not be familiar. We are an independent publishing company, we were established by a young woman, Sara Miller McCune, who 57 years ago, was a 24 year old with a clear vision around the real need for supporting and dissemination of knowledge and new knowledge claims. And this time last year, Sara finalized her estate plan to ensure that our independence as a publishing house is guaranteed. So, after her lifetime stage will be moving into a trust. And the beneficial owners of the trust will be a number of higher education institutions. And this felt important to share with you and to express because it for us, really means that it allows us the freedom to think long term as a publisher, and to put more effort into ensuring that people from all backgrounds are able to contribute to and benefit from the resources that help teaching, learning and research. A key part of our focus in our publishing has been really focusing on resources, being able to champion our resources, being able to really champion the social sciences. And that continues to be something that we see through this series. So, in today's event, introducing our new Social Science for Social Justice series, we wanted to share with you our our view that we really recognize that Sage the prevalence of structural discrimination that influences not only larger society, but our own academic sphere, which sits within that broader society. And we feel that we can commit to challenging unfair power structures within publishing and higher education to help create a more equitable future for all. And these commitments really guided the development of the series, which particularly champions bold new voices, that are anti racist, and that challenge unfair power structures in society, but which oftentimes are not always voices that have been folded into the existing canon. So, we've really ensured that our Social Science for Social Justice authors have the freedom they need to address critical social issues in their own voices. Our authors have focused on accessible language so that their ideas can reach a variety of audiences within academia and without, and help wider communities understand these issues, and act on what they've learned. So, with that brief background, I want to hand over to Delayna, who is our Senior Editor responsible for this new series has had the vision to bring it to life and allow her to introduce herself and say more about this work. So over to you Delayna.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  03:49

Thanks so much, Karen. So hi, everyone. Thank you so much for making the time and come to this event. I know that December can be a really busy time, with tying up work and celebration, so we really appreciate it. My name is Delayna Spencer. And I'm the Commissioning Editor at Sage who's worked on this series, and also your moderator for the evening. My pronouns are She/Her, and I'm wearing a stripy, black and white turtleneck. I've got greenish see-through glasses and my hairs are in locks and one a bit up. So, I'm going to give a brief overview of the series and introduce you to the fantastic editors and authors on the panel. Before we move into the discussion section of the event, just so that you're aware as well, we have time for questions for the audience at the end. So, if you have anything that you want to ask, please do post it into the q&a box. You can also upvote on questions that you'd like to hear answered as well. And just before I give a short introduction, I just really want to thank the editors and authors that have worked with me on this series. They've created such a supportive environment for each other and produce such inspiring fantastic books and most importantly, they took a chance on this series when it was just an idea and really helped give it live. So, thank you so much to Meredith, Francesca, Tarek and Jason, I don't think I could have done this without you all. So really thank you. And just now a short overview of the series. So, the Social Science for Social Justice series is a direct challenge to the traditional academic frameworks that have forced people of color to exist on the fringes and have their voices diminished, overwritten or clipped to fit within an agenda of an exclusion. The series has two core goals. The first is to champion and provide a platform for voices of the global majority, who are academics at all levels, students, social activists, journalists, and so on, supporting them in responding to our most urgent social and political issues. The second aim is to offer a new vision of what academic publishing could be, which is accessible, inclusive, and which works towards a shared social justice which benefits all. The homogenous makeup of those involved in academic publishing whether editors academics, journal board societies, peer reviewers, has allowed for gatekeeping to exist within the sector, a certain group of people are deciding what is the right kind of research and methodology and writing, texts are overly theoretical to the point where academic work is speaking inwards, rather than trickling down to a wider audience. And academics of color are told that speaking from personal experience is not correct. And yet we know that ethnographic research is perfectly acceptable when a white outsider enters into a community to extract data. We're told that an expert is a white man who has sat within academia their entire career, and who understand social phenomena through data and quotation. And we're told that successful titles are those that follow the trends of the majority market, and that anything outside of this is not commercially viable. I wanted to move away from these preconceived notions for the series. What I envisioned was a social science that’s personal, where the voice could be maintained and amplified, rather than edited and diminished for the sake of preexisting notions of what academic writing should be. The books are free of academic jargon, making them accessible to everyone. And they each work in the references of an academic article, as well as on the personal bookshelf of someone outside of academia. With this series, I hope to help redefine the idea of who an expert is, and also present full scope of the people who contribute to the social sciences. I'm now going to hand over to the editors to introduce themselves. So, Meredith, if you'd like to go first.

Meredith Clark (Editor) 07:38

Absolutely. Thank you, Delayna. Thank you, Karen, for this introduction. My name is Meredith Clark. I am an associate professor at Northeastern University in the School of Journalism, and the Department of Communication Studies in what is now known as Boston, Massachusetts, I'd like to acknowledge that I live on the traditional lands of the Massachusetts, Pawtucket, and Naumkeag peoples. These people are still here still in existence, yet have been forcibly removed from their land. And as someone on this land, I'm obliged to be mindful of their displacement, and what we now take up as the university and surrounding spaces. It's my privilege and honor to be a part of this series. And I look forward to speaking with you.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  08:26

Thanks so much. And Jason if you can give an introduction.

Jason Arday (Editor) 08:29

Good evening, or good afternoon, everyone, depending on where you are. My name is Jason Arday, I feel very fortunate to be here. im fortunate enough to be a professor of Sociology of Education at the University of Glasgow School of Education, and I just really want to pay homage one to Delayna, very, very fortunate to be able to call Delayna, probably one of our closest friends. And our vision for this book has been unbelievable. And really to pay homage as well, to Meredith. And it's been a privilege to be able to do this with her. And obviously, finally, and probably as importantly, Francesca and Tarek who have been amazing and really are going to spearhead or hopefully be a long run a succession of amazing contributions to do series. So, thank you very much, Karen, thank you for the amazing work you do and overseeing a lot of this as well. And again, just thank you so much for basically everything you've put together and also behind the scenes Heather and Chris as well. Thank you.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  09:27

Thanks so much. And I'm now going to let the authors do a brief overview of their titles and introduce themselves. So, I'll just start with Tarek.

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  09:40

Hi, everyone. It's really great to be here. First of all, thank you so much. Delayna, for inviting me from the very beginning and being part of this process been really great working with you, as well as the editors, Jay and Meredith for for all your support. So, my name is Tarek Younis. I'm Senior Lecturer in psychology at Middlesex university, my pronouns are he/him. In terms of sort of my appearance, I'm wearing a white shirt, gray cardigan, I have my black hair cut short. My beard unfortunately has streaks of gray. I think. If you're if you hear any screaming in the background, you probably see more gray appear in every second. Those are children. So don't worry about it this part of the process. And otherwise, yeah, I'm very happy to be here.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  10:36

And Tarek if you could just do a brief introduction to your book as well.

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  10:41

Oh, okay. Sorry, that that was included in it. So, yeah, to introduce my book. So, my book is called the "Muslim, State and Mind." It's looking at statecraft in times of Islamophobia. So, there's growing Islamophobia across the Global North. And so, my book really sits at the intersection of psychology, politics, and islamophobia. And the whole purpose of the book is really to just take a little bit more of a critical stance towards our approaches of islamophobia. In general, so much of the discussions of islamophobia for we often look at the question, what's the impact of Islamophobia on Muslims? And for me, I thought it would be perhaps a little bit more revealing to invert the question and think about what does Muslim distress reveal about the politics of psychology, as well as the political climate that we're in as well? So, I one of the main reasons I'm doing that is because not It's not to say that there are no for example, negative health outcomes in islamophobia, certainly, any form of marginalization will develop, you know, the sort of mental health, negative mental health outcomes that we can expect. But also, just about what the discourse of psychology, discourse of psychiatry is sort of how it frames distress in a very particular way by legitimizing certain forms of violence, and erasing or dismissing other forms of violence. And, of course, psychology and psychiatry, these disciplines are artifacts of, you know, Western epistemology, Western history. So, they they see violence, and they see forms of marginalization in very particular ways. So, I'm thinking about my, the whole purpose of the book is really just to reflect on these disciplines. And to see really what, what it reveals, in terms are what does Muslim distress reveal about the politics of these disciplines. So, I mean, I'm not going to necessarily go too much more into that my book starts actually with a case example, I'll just mention very quickly of someone that I know who was pulled aside by the police. And in fact, it was a hyper-militarized experience. So, he was taken out of his car, he had a lot of sort of assault rifles pointed at him. And it was a very terrible sort of experience of police violence. There was no reason for it whatsoever, and he was let out from the station, but to demonstrate the impact and the violence that he had experienced with the police. He his only way of being able to prove that the way he understood it was to go see a psychologist, and sort of demonstrate that he was traumatized, even though he didn't feel traumatized. And so, there's something about psychology, and the side disciplines, which make certain forms of violence, or perhaps frame a very particular way of being able to prove legibility for violence to say, okay, violence happened to me, if I can translate this experience in a certain language. So my, my book really is just sort of unpacks these experiences.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  14:09

Thank you. Thank you so much for that introduction to your book, Tarek. And Francesca if you'd like to introduce yourself and your book.

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  14:18

Hi, everyone, and thank you to everyone who's been a part of making today happen. I just want to reiterate a big thanks to Delayna for first getting in touch and approaching me about this series. And at a point in time, where I'd say I had a lot of scattered thoughts and was just sitting with the enormity of the COVID-19 pandemic. And and there was this huge opportunity to write in a way that felt very freeing, and that's in large part, and that’s in large part to how you've approached this whole process. It was also brilliant to get the chance to receive editorial support from people whose work I've long admired. So huge thank you to Meredith and Jason. And I really appreciated the opportunity to learn about Tarek work throughout this process too. So that's it point that I'm going to start to speak about when reflecting on my own book. So, something I think that both of us have tried to grapple with, as part of the work that we've focused on is the different ways that people's emotions are pathologized. In the context of my book, I've been looking at the relationship between consumer culture, care, and how forms of care are commodified. So, looking at the different ways that individuals and institutions that might be viewed as brands have tried to portray themselves as caring, but often times in ways that are dismissive of the realities that people are dealing with. This might involve a marketing campaign that suggests you can self care your way out of of structural oppression, or it might be looking at how universities respond to issues to racism and intersecting forms of inequality in ways that essentially amount to empty statements and social media. Essentially, I'm really interested in the critical ways we have seen different brands trying to position themselves as allies or activists. And in some cases, this involves marketing content that has been referred to as feminist advertising, so called “Femvertising.” In other cases, this might involve a marketing campaign that has been viewed as an example of performative wokeness. So, this has involved me thinking about the different ways that notions of wokeness and the work and activism of black individuals that has really been appropriated by different organizations has been emptied of its meaning has been coopted, as part of efforts to pursue profit, and to prioritize that over people. I'll just finish really by saying that overall, my book does deal with themes to do with grief. And it looks at experiences of angst, particularly black angst and what it means to acknowledge angst and its animating and generative force, and without glamorizing or fetishizing angst. And the book is also a book that I hope is rooted in the spirit of hope. And it's me reflecting on a series of different marketing and branding examples, as well as some of my own personal experiences, to consider how we might move collectively towards a future that I described as being a future emblem.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  17:09

Thank you so much, Francesca. And I know I'm supposed to say this, because I'm the editor, and I work at Sage. But please, everyone, do buy and read the books, they're so fantastic. I've read them multiple times, and they are some of the most exciting books that I've worked on. So please do get a copy, do read, do buy them as Christmas presents for friends and family. They'll appreciate it. So, I'm going to move on to the discussion section now. And that will involve me just asking questions to the panel members. So, the series is about moving away from preconceived notions of what an expert and then academic text is. What do you think of people? What do you want people to think when they envision an academic text? And what do you want them to picture about an academic text is going forward. And that's for Jason and Francesca.

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  18:12

So, I think maybe the first thought that comes to mind is when I think of an academic text, I think of something that's very dense. And I think of something that's often quite inaccessible for a number of different reasons. And here, I'm just reflecting on the fact that people read and learn in different ways, I know that I myself am a very visual person. And the way that I take an information is impacted by my experience of ADHD. And when I think of an academic text, I think is something that's quite fixed and rigid and inflexible. And, and something that doesn't necessarily engage with creative forms of writing or reflexive approaches to writing or visual culture. And that's not to say that there aren't academic texts that do that, because there definitely are, but I think they tend to be few and far between and they often tend to be devalued and disregarded within academia. But I feel like a series such as this is approaching, you know, academic writing and just writing in general in a very different way. And that includes thinking about ways to write that really recognizes people's experiences, feelings, emotions, and that that can be a key part of knowledge rather than positioning emotions, feelings, lived experience, or knowledge and scholarship as two mutually exclusive spaces. I feel that this series really brings everything together in a way that is natural and reflective of different people's lives.

Jason Arday (Editor) 19:32

I think that's brilliant. I mean, there's not much I would want to add to that, um, I think that rigidity, and I think it's a really interesting thing, and how historically kind of academic learning, you know, academic texts have been kind of categorized and designed and the audience that they're for, and I think, what what this particular series does through your brilliance, Delayna is really kind of envisage a different way of kind of digesting and incorporating information. And I think the greatest gift you can give a writer in any, in any kind of written discipline is freedom, and freedom of expression in particular. And I think what this does, is it gives authors, you know, exceptional authors like Tarek, Francesca, that freedom of expression, outside the confines of what we've historically deemed to be academic excellence. And I think the resifting and realignment of those parameters that by yourself, and consequently, Meredith, Francesca, and Tarek has really led to something that I think is gonna be really powerful. And I also think, in the kind of incoming years to ensue, that I think people are going to drift more to this type of writing, and this will become more than norm, because I think it's about broadening and creating, you know, civic forms of kind of academic inclusion. And part of doing that is to make writing accessible, as as Francesca said, and to have it in a way that is digestible, readable, and also relatable, there needs to be that human element there. And actually, academic texts historically, in a weird way, can do the complete opposite of that. So, I think, you know, everything Francesca said completely chimes with, I think, a lot of how people think and my own thoughts as well.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  19:35

Thank you both so much. You've really managed to articulate what I was trying to do with the series in a way that I definitely can't. So, thank you. So, the next question is for Tarek and Francesca? What has the experience of academic writing been for you both in the past?

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  21:50

Yeah, so there's lots of different words that come to mind. I think maybe you start by saying, I realized I've always loved writing, I think of writing as my first love. But I think that the process or experience of and you're further study in higher education doing a PhD, that that can be quite a painful experience in terms of how it can change your relationship with writing. And, and I think some of my previous experiences of academic writing have felt stifling, there's sometimes felt a tension between wanting to write and what really feels like my own voice, and navigating different conventions or expectations, or just outright obstacles that are sometimes placed in your way by different institutions and, and different academic writing processes. And I think that's why you know, this experience, it's been really encouraging. And as much as you know, writing can always involve its own challenges. It's been really joyful in many ways. I think it was quite a cathartic process. And I know that we're not for, again, the support of everybody who's been involved in the series, I don't think I ever would have found the ability to put pen to paper and reflect on the different things that I have done. So, I feel as though academic writing can be this, but the unfortunate reality is the way academic structures work. And it often prevents people from writing in a freeing way.

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  23:14

Ah, yeah, I can definitely, I definitely agree with so much of what Francesca just said, I think, I mean, for myself, the I mean, my experience of academic writing in the past has been quite rocky. I think, especially in subjects like racism and islamophobia. There's certain performances we have to engage in, there's certain levels and frames of acceptability of how to discuss these subjects, right, like certain ways of framing it in a way that's always offered, obviously, forward looking. And often my sometimes almost forced ourselves into situations of sort of engaging in like diversity politics, right? Like, oh, you know, this is, we just need more different more color and all these different structures, but we can't really engage the structures themselves and really bring in, you know, really bring in a sort of sense of reflexivity in the institutions of what they're actually engaging in, when it comes to islamophobia when it comes to racism. Actually, the war on terror is a really, really revealing example, in that regard, especially in my own writing experiences, I've been often told, either through editors or co-authors, or even conferences and other places, when I'm going to speak on the war on terror, to actually not talk about it in a certain way, in a certain way. And that actually just happened to me last week, at a big conference, where I was invited to speak, in fact, on racism and Islamophobia and healthcare, you know, I was told not to speak about the war on terror in a particular in a particular light. And, you know, I think it just goes to show that you know, It's it's, it's it's actually very difficult, especially with highly moralizing subjects that are very close to the state. You know, in the war in the war on terror, George Bush, you know, famously said, you either you're either with us or against us, right, he made a very thin moral line between sort of good and bad. And what I found very interesting, you know, throughout academia, about obviously, within academic writing, is that that thin line sort of goes, cuts through everything. So, you know, anyone who, like a racialized Muslim like myself, who's speaking out critically against the war on terror or counterterrorism strategies, there is already the sort of moral valence in that, which is highly either, most, most of it is self-censored from my side. So even right now, you know, I'm very cautious. I'm very sensitive to how I speak about this. But then in my writing, you know, that's going to be reflected not only from me, but also from editors and from others as well. And I think it speaks volumes, that in this, in this series, I felt far more comfortable in just, you know, writing and just sharing my thoughts than I ever had previously in writing on subjects like the islamophobia and the war on terror.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  26:28

Thank you so much. I'm really glad just to hear that you did feel a sense of comfort when you're writing for the series. I think that's one of the most important parts of it just for authors of color to feel that sense of comfort and support. Yeah, so we'll move on to the next question. And this one is for Tarek and Meredith. So, could you speak to how publishers have contributed towards gatekeeping, and an imbalance of power within academic publishing? And we'll start with Meredith.

Meredith Clark (Editor)  27:02

Certainly. Thank you. Yeah. So, we've already referenced some of the ways that we see gatekeeping, taking shape and form within academia. Thinking about how publishing is really the currency of academia, whether that's in terms of articles, book chapters, or manuscripts, I think about the barriers that so many people face when they want to write a manuscript, we know that most of our training does not actively focus on writing for the world that we're going to be expected to perform in it's writing papers to pass a class, it's writing a thesis to earn a degree, it's writing a dissertation to earn a degree, but it's not focused on writing in a way that is open and accessible. And honestly, that has enough of a quantity and substantive nature. To put forth as a book, people don't get trained in book writing in their academic programs. And so, when you come to a publisher and say, I have this great idea for a book, they often ask from the very beginning, well, I need two sample chapters. Depending on what you're doing with life, you may not have time to write two sample chapters, so that someone can decide whether or not they're going to extend you a contract, the same time that contract might be necessary for your promotion to the next level in your career, or for you to make a transition from one career to another. And what I have found is that in conversations with publishers, they may not need as much as they're initially asking for, but that is the common practice. And so, it's been widely accepted and not really well interrogated. They haven't asked themselves what this might be like for someone who is not an academic and wants to publish, or for someone who is at a teaching specific university or institution, where the focus is on really spending time and engaging with the students and less so on research. And so, I find where we can think about those practices that we've inherited, that we have replicated without questioning. Those are the places where we create obstacles that are not necessary. It's been my experience to talk with people and say, reach out and have a conversation with that editor who asked you for two chapters. Tell them about where you work, you know, locate your work within it's very practical setting. Are you someone teaching four or five classes at a time and thus, you don't have time to write two chapters in three months so that you can get a contract but you need this contract in order to actually write the book. Ask them with one chapter will do often it will ask them if you can have a copy of a sample proposal. If you've never done this before, and you want to see what sort of works they've accepted before. Often, they will do that. but those are the things that I think a lot of folks do not really entertain, they don't critically think about what it's like to be on the outside of this process and to navigate it for the first time, and all of the permissions and sort of adjustments that can be made to make it more accommodating to new writers.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  30:23

Thanks so much, Meredith. And moving to you, Tarek. I'll just repeat the question as well. So, could you speak to how publishers have contributed towards gatekeeping? Sorry. And an imbalance of power within academic publishing?

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  30:40

Yeah, I think that's a really great question. And I think I was, I mean, I think Meredith basically hit the nail on the head, I think, I think, to me, also, the first thought that came to me was about how much of writing the process of writing is also a matter of privilege. And in a way, you know, those, we don't have that space, or that luxury to really just be able to sit down and write, for whatever reasons, are immediately sort of, you know, this, this favorite in the entire academic, the whole academic process. I think there's also, there's an element of it, of how academic publishing, in this, in this sort of power differentials is created, you know, something that's quite egotistical, you know, we have so many, or let me say, just speaking for myself, and sort of the experiences encounters that I had, of, you know, of those sorts of are very much focused on chasing citations, and often, you know, the way impact of knowledge is being sort of perceived or how it's being quantified. And that currency is so important, because, you know, if we think about how, you know, what, what is, you know, a successful form of academic publishing something that, you know, is something that most people will, you know, will, will read and say, and in many ways that really just incorporate encourages normative ways of looking at subjects, so sort of criticality is often pushed aside, or something that's often just sort of a checkbox in some exercises, you know, some paragraphs might mention elements of criticality. But really, the whole point is that there's there's almost this almost constant regurgitation of the normative ways of looking at issues and sort of reaffirming existing paradigms of looking at certain issues. And, yeah, I think that that's often a problem. I mean, I think, obviously, critical approaches, then get less attention from publishers. And, you know, and I think other forms of impact are also dismissed, you know, so not just in terms of, Okay, how many people are just reading this one piece of work. But you know, there's impact on the communities, there's, there's different ways of understanding the impact of certain knowledge production. And I think these are the things that we need to be taking, taking more seriously outside of just academic publishing. But certainly academic publishing has been problematic in that regard.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  33:33

Thank you so much. And the next question is open to everyone. And maybe you could just give two or three points for this. But what do you want to see from academic publishers in the future? If anyone wants to jump in, go for it.

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  33:50

i'll Have a go Yeah. Listening to what everybody was was seeing there and agreeing with all on what came to mind was part of this process that was really encouraging. And I think also just helpful in terms of trying to maintain some sense of momentum, whilst accounting for what was going on in life and how things changed was there was a sense of pacing and a sense of patience. And I think that can be really rare. And I think academic writing and publishing, there can can be this constant pressure, and there can be a focus on speed sometimes. And something that I really appreciated was how throughout this process, there was the encouragement and there is the support, but there was also flexibility as well. So and you know, when things were going on in life, which meant it wasn't possible to perhaps do something as quickly as you initially planned, there was support and in terms of providing you a bit more time, there was a sense of reassurance, and just a sense of I think, patience and acknowledgement of the fact that as everybody's seeing, there isn't always time with resources to write And rather than being made to feel bad about that, and I think throughout this period, it's really been clear from the editors and from Delayna, that there's always been support available to navigate what's going on. So again, I shouldn't say huge thank you, with regards to all and see for other publishers, I'd love to see more of that because life is messy and complicated and difficult. And it should never be the case that a focus on writing comes at the cost of people's health and well-being.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  35:31

Thank you, I'm gonna go to Jason next.

Jason Arday (Editor)  35:39

Think it's really interesting to just kind of listen to one. And I guess what I'd kind of like to see from from publishers more more broadly, is just an acceptance of different that there isn't one monolith, or one way to write and one way to do things, you know, I still have reservations about using the word I, because I was taught when I didn't really agree that you shouldn't speak in the first person. And even now, when I'm looking at people's work, I often, you know, I had to catch myself couple of years ago, correcting people not to do that kind of thinking what you're doing, Jason, you're, you're playing into all of this. And I think the more we can reject that as a way of thinking, and let people really express themselves through writing. You know, I think, frankly, Francesca mentioned that it was kind of a passion of hers. And obviously, you know, very fortunate to know you quite wildly. I know, writing is a passion of yours as well, and literature. And I just think like it's something that should bring unbridled joy. And for some reason, academic writing seldom does do that. And if we can find a way to provide that joy in that process, I think it was mentioned earlier, it can become a process of I think Francesca mentioned it or Meredith if they can become a price of catharsis. And I think that's hugely important in these really difficult violent times, I think finding spaces for healing, particularly through literature, through lexicon through the magic of language, and particularly in its written form, I think it's so so important in these really difficult turbulent times. So, I would like authors to probably be a bit more culturally, cognizant, and understanding of what's going on around them. And understanding that actually, people want to digest literature in a different way. And I guess, you know, the vanguard of that, in my very humble, slightly biased opinion, is Delayna, but I think that is also a call to other editors, you know, publishers to really kind of think about how they might engage people in that process, because I think, you know, it does make it more accessible for everyone. And it really allows people to, you know, come as you are in some respects.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  37:54

Thanks so much, Jason. I'm gonna move over to Tarek now. And just say, remember, the question is just what do you want to see from academic publishers in the future?

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  38:04

Yeah, no, I, again I think Jason and others have really said all that there is. I mean, to say to at least from my side, I don't have really much else to say, except to really emphasize I think the element about finding a process. That is cathartic. I think this is something that sort of allows people to write from the heart. And it's not one that's always so explicitly constraining, I think is very important. And I think especially also, the other point of not necessarily rehashing the same thing over and over again, I think becomes very salient, especially in some fields. As I was mentioning before, like, security, counterterrorism, these sorts of fields, tend to reify and reproduce themselves, but also sell very well. And I think, you know, I think allowing different voices to come through is very, very important.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  39:11

Thanks, and just ending on Meredith.

Meredith Clark (Editor)  39:14

Yes, I'd love to see more publishers acknowledge how much of a solitary pursuit writing is often framed as, and do more to support the authors who are contributing to their particular publications. So, this is an example of exactly what I mean. I cannot think of other times that I have been able to get on a zoom with a q&a with an introduction and hearing directly from authors and editors about the work that they're doing, and beyond a simple presentation of their work and ideas. This conversation has talked about our backgrounds We talked about the perspectives we bring to the work, we talk about what the work means to us. And I think that helps people to see that they're not alone in doing the work. So even as you're writing from your couch in that coffee shop, one place I love to write on my bed, because I don't want to go anywhere else, when it's nice and warm. You know, you're not alone, that there are so many people who are engaged in that process with you. And you're not competing against other authors, whether they are in the same series as you or being published by another label, we so often get that question, well, who's publishing your book, and I would love for more people to be able to say, I am going, my book is going to be in conversation with these great authors that I know in this series, with these great authors that I know from Sage with this great authors that I know from this group of folks who have encouraged me along the way. So, more accessibility to other authors that their work is being supported by the same outlet, I think, is what I'd like to see.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  39:38

Thank you all so much for your really generous answers. The next question, that question is for Jason and Francesca. And that's what changes do you think can be made so that academics of color are better supported by publishers?

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  41:29

I feel like the first thing is just a lot of changes. Um, I think, you know, one of many changes is looking at who's working in publishing. And I'm not just who's working in publishing, what rules are they working in? What opportunities for promotion are aren't available to them? I think I've definitely had experiences in the past where it's been clear, there's a real disconnect between the place from which I'm trying to push my my writing and, and expectations from different outlets. And sometimes that results in deciding this isn't where this this writing is going to find a home. I think, you know, to go back to some of the earlier questions around academic writing, one of many obstacles can be when you're faced with having to constantly justify the reason for writing about what it is you're writing about in the first place. And that was just never sort of up for debate throughout this process, there is a real sense of meaningfully engaging with the different topics, questions, themes, and that that became these books. So I feel as though one of the many things that the publishing industry can do to better support academics of color involves looking in-house first to identify actually, are we equipped to support and to be trying to approach academics of color? And if not, what can we do to change that? And if we are, you know, equipped to do that work? How are we going to ensure that the processes are tokenizing? One, and it's a process that isn't extractive it's a process that is, you know, helpful for the writer, and I understand that the publisher is looking for something that's helpful for them. But you want the experience to feel anything but transactional. And I think this experience has just been the antithesis of how things can be and has restored my faith in academic publishing in many ways.

Jason Arday (Editor)  43:18

It's been Francesca, Delayna, can i ask you to repeat the question slightly, because it cut it out at the beggining,

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  43:24

yeah, sure. Sorry about that. So it's what changes do you think can be made? So the academics of color are better supported by publishers?

Jason Arday (Editor)  43:33

Yeah. So and just to kind of, I guess, piggyback off the back of what Francesca said. I mean, there are two things that I think academic publishing historically hasn't been particularly kind to scholars and academics of color. And to try and explain to someone how much things have changed in the last five years. It's quite remarkable. So you know, five years ago, there wasn't actually many opportunities for academics of color to be able to publish work on race and issues around the intersection and race. And that's been a really significant thing. We, you know, British academic in particular, there is very low percentage of black and ethnic minority people that are actually published. And actually, what we have now come to know is because those processes of peer review, tend to be wrapped up in bias, discriminatory discourse, and often that the narrative is determined by white people about what is good academic practice, what is good academic rigor. And often the expertise doesn't even align with what is actually being examined or explored. And I think what we've been able to see in the last, definitely five years for sure, is a lot of opportunities. And a lot of space is created for people to engage in those processes in a more fair and equitable way in terms of having for example, experts actually understand the nature of the work. And so when you're in a fortunate position to, I guess, be in a position I'm in and you get to look at, you know, amazing work from people you actually admire greatly in terms of Francesca, and Tarek, you're able to look at that work? You know, I think those are two, the best piece of work I've personally ever seen. I think he mentioned the same thing, Delayna, you know what, I want to speak for Meredith. But, you know, that's something that she may occur as well. And you just kind of think, you know, could that book have existed five years ago? You know, and, and my feeling is no, not, you know, and I just feel like where we are now is a really important space. But this really needs to be the catalyst for more people of color guests to take the plunge, and be unafraid, and unapologetic, and speaking about their truth, and their arrival to this space. And I think that this series, and you know, amazing people, like yourself, and Meredith, in terms of lead from a leadership point of view, provide an opportunity for people to really engage in that.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  46:08

Thank you so much. So, the next question is going to be for Meredith and Tarek. It's a bit of a mouthful, so I can repeat if you need me to. But we have this idea of an expert as a white man who sits at the highest echelons of a university, who might extract data from communities without necessarily giving back and without allowing for a kind of trickle down as information. What do you want people to think of when they think of an expert?

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  46:42

We'll start with Meredith.

Meredith Clark (Editor)  46:45

Okay, great. So, this is a thing that comes up in my classrooms often, and it's almost a trope that we've begun to talk about, about old white men and how they what they represent, right, and what they represent so often is the way things have been done. They represent the status quo. And so, I push my students to interrogate you know, what their meaning when they make this reference, and also what they really want to say about it. And I say all that to frame the idea that yes, we do default to this one particular figure, it's someone inside the academy. It's someone that has the requisite degrees, it's someone that's gone to particular schools, or they've had certain training, it's a person that carries them in a certain themselves in a certain way speaks with a particular diction knows the right words and phrases and language to use. And they generally comport themselves with an air of respectability, that is easily translated across a number of cultures, or so we think, what I would like for us to see as an expert is a person who is steeped in the lived experience that they are talking about the lived experience that they are working with, you don't have to necessarily be someone who fully experiences everything that you want to write about, but you should have some connection to it. In journalism practice, we refer to emotional proximity. And that is what helps you feel the connection to the human element of a particular story, we'd love to see us make more of an emphasis on that kind of connection. In terms of who writes about certain topics. I want to know that the expert has the lens for seeing the complexities within the cultures that they're studying the complexities and everything from the way data is collected and shared and disseminated. And thinking about the language in which it is expressed, and honestly, who gets to speak. So, an expert for me is going to be someone who has a particular orientation to the experience that they're going to be writing about or talking about. They have the cultural fluency, to speak about this from their own perspective, and to amplify the voices of people whose perspectives perhaps they don't have intimate familiarity with. And they also have a sense of humility. So, knowing when it's not their voice that needs to be heard. It's someone else's, and they're using their position to make sure that person is heard.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  49:44

Thanks so much, Meredith. And moving to you Tarek.

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  49:48

Yeah, that's also a great question. I think, you know, I think it's important for us to interrogate the very notion of expert expertise as well. I think just that notion itself seeped in a certain form of professionalism, right. So only the sort of people who have written on a subject or or present on subjects are experts, or whereas those who've had those lived experiences are part of that community. They're almost kind of reduced to sort to data, right, or gatekeepers, and I think we have to reformulate our understanding of where knowledge is and how it's produced. I mean, I think just to mention, and I think just to really reiterate this point, I've have a really big problem with this, and I think is a personal experience. I've had I know, many people in the field among racialized minorities, where, you know, we want to research our own communities. And we're often questioned about our proximity to these communities. So, because of my proximity, let's say to racialize Muslim community, you know, I can easily be questioned. Well, are you really objective? Right? Can you really be objective? When you do this, and even you can see in certain conferences, whereas certain people can present themselves as as sort of impartial, right? They're not biased. They're apolitical? Because, you know, it could be, you know, alright, a racialized white man, slash expert, who's coming to speak about the Muslim community? Well, his his words have a certain weight to it. That doesn't seem to be political. And I think it's sort of this, the location of politics, right, the dismissal of politics, when it comes to expertise in these situations, I think really goes to reveal just how, you know, it's really only political when when a racialized minority is doing the work, right, or it's positioned themselves as an expert on the subject, then it's suddenly all of a sudden, it's political. So, I just think, reiterate those points. I think Meredith mentioned this, I think we really have to rethink, you know, who, who's knowledgeable, when it comes to, you know, experience, lived experience, familiarity with the community, I think, is really important humility. I thought, though, that's such an important point. The only additional point I would add to what was said, before me, it was, I think there has to be an element of recognizing the stakeholders, who are we producing this knowledge for? Right? There has to be I think, among experts, we're gonna if we're gonna say someone's an expert on the subject, or of the community, some sort of ethical responsibility towards the communities that they are, you know, that the researching that we're working with, I mean, really, I think working with is a better way of framing it. You know, I've, I've really encountered many situations where the, it seemed like the ethical responsibility towards the community was entirely lacking from so-called experts because their main stakeholders were, you know, the funder, the publishers, you know, their own academic sort of ladder that are trying to do they're trying to climb. And I really feel like that sort of ethical responsibility is the very first thing if there was a way to gauge that to say, okay, you know, is, what's the most important thing that you want in this research, you know, or what you're doing with your work?  Is it the community themselves? Or is it something else? I think that's the thing. That's the sort of line that I would be really, I would find very important to unpack.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  53:49

Thank you so much. So, the next question is for everyone. And it's what do you think the place for academics and universities is in the fight for social justice? I'm going to start with Jaso.n

Jason Arday (Editor)  54:03

i think it's great question. I think the place for universities in terms of the case of social justice, I think it's to find some synergy with people in the community. I think universities could do a better job, particularly the university has been civic-facing and really creating spaces that become communal hubs for people to kind of, learn, thrive. Take from those spaces, given the amount of contribution they make to those spaces through other means. I think also it's about embracing difference in this in the truest sense of the word. I think there are a couple of franchise terms, unfortunately. Diversity decolonizing inclusion And I think it's really about scaling back what those actually mean. And moving away from the theory of these ideas and moving towards the practical elements of these ideas and seeing and implementing this change. And I think the practice aspect of this becomes hugely important because for me, there's a huge disconnect between the theory of these ideas, which sound great Inclusion, Diversity decolonizing, within the practice of it, the practice of it, actually, to be quite honest, exposes more black and ethnic minority people to further violence and harm. So, finding ways to actually find ways to create spaces where people aren't inflicting or experiencing more harm come to usually important. And then thinking across the intersection. It's about finding ways to continue to develop spaces of belonging to keep redefining that notion, and that's in some respects what it is. It's a notion belonging, because it's defined by predominantly white people from being absolutely honest. And it's about how we redefine that as a more inclusive term that practically draws alignment with people's different experiences. And I think that's hugely important how we redefine that, because I think all of the divisive exclusionary mechanisms within society have become more sophisticated, and harder to illuminate and be vigilant to. So we do need to have a hyper agility to that and recognize those pitfalls as instantly, swiftly as possible.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  56:39

Francesca, do you want to jump in next?

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  56:41

Yeah, thanks. I completely agree with all of that. And I was thinking about a few different things. One of them is to go back to also what Meredith was saying earlier on to do with humility, I think it's important for universities themselves to recognize the limitations of what they can and can't do to support or contribute to social justice. Especially, we're thinking of universities in the context of marketized higher education, which is increasingly inaccessible, and often perpetuates some of the forms of harm and inequality that we're speaking about. And but that saids are holding on to the hope side of stuff. I think a lot about different people whose support and mentorship has played a huge part, in my own experience, and just makes me think of the role of mentorship in general. And here, I'm reflecting on the work of Naya Jones and Maddie Breeze, who both generously read my book and provided really kind words of support, and who are two people that I really learned so much from in terms of reflexive approaches to writing, embracing the sort of approaches to writing that we're speaking about. So, I think that one of the ways that academics within universities can do more to push towards and forms of change, and addressing issues of injustice, is to ensure that they're sharing their knowledge. And they're sharing their knowledge beyond the confines of academic institutions, but also in ways that involves treating students as knowledge producers and scholars in their own right, and challenges these hierarchical distinctions that universities often try to uphold and really exclusionary ways. So, yeah, I think that universities themselves to what extent they can be radical, that's always going to be something that needs to be really chewed over and discussed and debated. But I think we can still recognize the important work that academics do, particularly academics who are engaged with the communities they're part of on to our you know, to reflect on Jason's Jason's point, sure thinking of who this knowledge is for and what they want this knowledge to do, and how this knowledge is collective in nature, rather than being you know, possessed by a single individual who's arbitrarily deemed an authority or an expert.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  58:57

Thanks, Meredith, do you want to jump in?

Meredith Clark (Editor)  59:01

i have been perusing the questions in the chat. So I'm going to need you to repeat the question.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  59:08

No worries at all. So, it was what do you think the place for academics and universities is in the in the fight for social justice?

Meredith Clark (Editor)  59:18

Ah, okay. So, the big one, yes, it is. And I appreciate Francesca raising the notion about how radical you know the university can actually be in the limits of its radical potential. I do subscribe to Bell Hooks' idea that the classroom is a space of radical possibility. But I think that emphasizes what is possible in a small space in one that isn't governed by multiple layers of bureaucracy at one particular time, right. I see that play out in terms of the discussions that take place in the classroom, in terms of the exchange of information. And I recognize that the bureaucracy is all still there. But it's not weighing in the same way as, say, a council that's designed within a university or even deciding what majors what disciplines and who has what sort of powers within the university. I think the space for academics in universities is to recognize the access to resources that we have, and to direct them into the places where they are needed. And that first requires the listening to the communities that we want to be in service to to understand what their needs are, so that we can identify what we have that might be of use to them. I've taken to calling this micro reparations site, Grundy, who is a sister scholar here in Boston has mentioned this as a program of work. Her father, an academic at the University of Kentucky, in my hometown of Lexington did, he took money from the university and created these programs that allowed people to see themselves in ways that they hadn't been seen before. And those programs were open to the community. They were sponsored by the university. And it created the kind of space that I think missions for educating and being connected to the general public, I have serious misgivings about the radical possibilities of the university, especially as the university becomes more corporatized. And functions as more of a customer service model, rather than a space for true education, and training. But I do think the one thing that we could do very, very well is advocate from the positions of relative power that we have, creating space for people and making sure that they're getting the support they need. One last thing I'll say, to sort of operationalize that, a practice that I've seen, so many peers do, and one that I do myself is that we make sure we pay people for their labor. It's a very simple practice. But it's one that the academy takes for granted, we will invite people to come and speak or to be part of our programs and our initiatives, even things like jumping on an hour and a half long zoom today, we recognize it's a great privilege to be able to do that. And so when you have a guest speaker who comes to a class, you know, offering substantial honorarium, so that person can actually make the money that they need to live after they've taken some time from their lives, which they could be doing to support themselves or something to build relationships in their community, as recognition of the work and the service that they're given. That's just one way to sort of think about how we can use our resources effectively. And value the work that people do in the same ways that we want our value are our work valued by the very institutions that we work for.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:03:25

Thank you so much, my desk. And Tarek if you'd like to answer the question to please.

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  1:03:32

Yeah, thank you. So I think I mean, I'll just emphasize, again, the point if university space can really be that sort of radical space that we hope it to be. And I think there's a lot that's already been said, about that, not least the sort of the sort of highly neoliberal nature of academia at the moment. And by that, I also mean, in the current climate, I think it's very interesting, how, you know, there's a lot of sort of posturing these days, especially in sort of post George Floyd moment that we're in, of anti racism that we're seeing all across the global north, really, but, you know, it's, or at least we can see here in the US and in the UK and Canada. So there's this posturing, but, you know, to what extent, you know, racism is really understood and taken seriously outside of, you know, sort of just trainings and, you know, other other other forms of being able to just go through some sort of checkbox and exercise. And we know sort of the neoliberal attitude is really to appropriate, all these different forms of radicalisms, into into the fold, right without really making any sort of systematic, systematic changes. And I think, to not just be so theoretical about this, you know, I think a really, you know, there's a lot of examples to this, which comes to mind. But I think one here in the UK universities is the hostile environment policy, which was introduced by the Conservative government here 10 years ago. And hostile environment policies, strategy, as a whole is inherently anti anti migrant rights, xenophobic, by its very nature, it's embedded within UK universities. You know, and it differs, how its its impact is really widespread in terms of, you know, to what extent sort of border policing in and of itself, has has been embedded within institutions and legitimized in different forms of sort of sharing student data with, with the home office and other things that we've seen, you know, terrible, terrible stories. So, you know, we can, I think we can talk about how we hope our, you know, our classrooms and be safe spaces, but as long as policies like hostile environment, prevent, you know, all these other forms of policies, at least here in the UK, are still, you know, they're still prevalent, and, you know, they still exist, there's very little that we can do about creating a safe space that isn't inherently just, you know, dismissing the structural realities of work, or where injustice comes from. And so, yeah, I think moving forward, you know, be really, really, I'd be really keen on, you know, academia and universities start taking these things far more seriously. At the moment, it's actually quite the opposite, when we tried to bring up these subjects on the different policies that the universities are themselves embedding within their institutions. You know, we either get dismissed or, you know, completely, you know, just disregarded or downplayed, you know, so I think there's, there's a lot of there's a lot more we have to do in that regard.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:07:18

Thank you so much, Tarek. And thank you, everyone for answering that question. I'm going to move to some questions from the audience now. And I've got a follow up one, to the one that I was just asked from Lavon Govindor, I hope I pronounced that correctly. Please do let me know in the q&a If I have not. So they've said they love the question about the role of the academy in the fight for social justice and the reference to Bell Hooks. What are some of the boundaries that you feel you've each had to navigate? And how do you do so? For example, I often feel and get told that I'm too scholarly for activism too teacherly for the academy too academic for teaching and too activistly for scholarship, academic writing or presentation. What stories do you have about navigating some of these false binaries? I'm happy for anyone to jump in with an answer.

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  1:08:18

I got some initial thoughts. I'll keep them brief. I think it's about sort of the process of going through different stages of realizing these various binaries and assumptions that people project onto you. It could be that they make it clear in how they ask a question, and in how they frame your work. And I'm at a point in time where I mindful of words of advice I received many years ago, it wasn't even words of advice, actually was a conversation with a Senior Scholar at the time, who spoke about these sorts of issues and said, I don't subscribe to that. And it wasn't that they were being flippant and implying that it's it's not going to be challenging to face these these assumptions, these ideas of what knowledge is or isn't scholarship is or isn't activism is or isn't, what they were getting across was was that they weren't going to waste time trying to justify who they were and what their work was about, and when that could be time spent, being who they are or working on their work. So I feel as though it's not our responsibility to prove people's, you know, assumptions as as as being wrong. I think we're better place focusing on finding ways to do the sort of work that we're speaking about today. And if people, people's assumptions disappear as a result of that, you know, that's great, but the reality is, I think there are many people who will be committed to misunderstanding you and your work. And the more we figure out ways to not be preoccupied with that, the better and I think that one of the ways that that process can become I don't want to say easier, but I guess, less time consuming and less energy draining. thing is finding your people. And also remembering that academia is a tiny part of a very big world that likes to act as though it's the center of it. And I think actually, that can be a really helpful reminder of how insignificant and ridiculous some of the projections and assumptions that are pushed our way are.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:10:22

Does anyone else want to jump in with an answer for that question?

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  1:10:30

I think I might have even, I think I might even refer to this in the book, because I think there's this idea of like, scholar activist, right. And I think that became popular. And I think, you know, I might speak to myself as such, but if you really think about it, I think just that false binary, I think we really need to attack it. You know, what is a scholar activist? I mean, what is the scholar whose work isn't really targeting the community, or in any way, shape, or form any form of social justice whatsoever? You know, like, I mean, what, what is the ethics of such an individual, and at the same time, I think there's a sort of, there's almost a sort of violence towards activists as if somehow they're not themselves engaged in theory, you know, and sort of the intellectual work and understanding the issues and somehow, you know, scholarship is really only embedded within the academy. And you have to sort of be legitimized with some kind of certificate to be recognized as a scholar, you know, I think, you know, I, I think, as, as Francesca was just mentioning, you know, I think, you know, we kind of have to start, you know, you know, rethinking the terminology that we use, you know, I think when when people come to us with these binaries, it's important to like, really just begin that process of unpacking and working together. And just recognizing what these binaries are doing to others who, you know, who are being dismissed in the usage of such terms.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:12:11

And thank you so much. I'm just going to move on to the next question. And this is from Beatrice, following up from Meredith at this point on the importance of paying people for their labor. So what's your take on the current status quo, where so many things in academia and publishing rely on service, which is mostly unpaid? I'm thinking Peer Review Letters of recommendation, even publishing as a junior scholar, among many things. It just seems to reinforce privilege, those that those who can afford will alkways be ahead. Meredith, do you want to jump in on that, since it was following up on your point?

Meredith Clark (Editor)  1:12:14

absolutely I'd love to thank you for this question. So they're the ways and I will just speak to my very specific orientation to these issues. The ways that I think about service and its utility, is to divide the service that is done as part of my official job, the service that is done in order to create room for others in the academy or for others wherever I have access, and the service that is done simply to fulfill a duty that needs to be taken care of. It's in that latter category that I often find things that probably should be paid or should be somehow compensated or recognized, and are not. There are plenty of service things that we and I'll say we as an inclusive term of academics. But there are plenty of things that we do that are part of our actual jobs, right. So my reviewing papers and reviewing book chapters and reviewing things that need to go out. That is part of the work that I'm doing, that my salary subsidizes my time to be able to do. But then there is the service that is often deemed invisible, of mentoring and reading and reviewing that I haven't been officially asked to do. But perhaps someone has tapped and asked, you know, can you take a look at this, to see what I'm missing or to see what the critiques are or to help me make sense of something that others don't or aren't going to make clear. And I find that particularly people who are from structurally marginalized groups, we're often asked to do a lot of that work, and that labor is indeed unpaid in terms of money, but I think about it as being payment for both the work The ancestors before me have done and the work that the legacy generations after me are going to do. So that's one way that I make sense of this idea of service now that that third category of service that should be paid, I often bring it to folks attention. And I asked them, you know, how much would it cost you to do this particular thing, I can tell you that it would cost me to do this particular thing, you know, yes, I am. Such an analytically minded person, I shout out my sun sign here. I'm a Capricorn. So we're all about money, right? That I've broken down what my hourly rate is. And I can tell you, if there is a job that requires five to 10 hours, this is what it would cost me to do. That is a job that someone in our community could have, right. And that means that there is work that someone should be compensated for. And so, it's sometimes throwing some sharp elbows and saying, what we need here is the allocation of resources, so that this job can be done more effectively. Now, let's think about some of the creative ways that we can make that happen. And it sounds easier than it is to do. But it is possible. And it's the kind of pressure that the world is going to continue to need. Especially as an I'll just throw in a little conspiracy for fun here. But as so many jobs become automated, and people begin to assume that AI and other services and tools can replicate the very human interactions that are necessary for us to create and share knowledge. So recognizing that there is work to be done, that there are people who are well equipped to do it. And those people should be fairly compensated for their work. And then our role in that is to make that very clear and plain to people and to operationalize it for them so that they are able to attend to those issues. Hope that makes sense.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:17:09

Yeah, thank you so much for that. There's quite a lot of questions to get through. So, I'm just going to jump straight to the next one. And this one's from Marquis Jana. I hope I pronounced that correctly. Again, please put in the q&a if we didn't. But they're saying they keep thinking of Sarah Ahmed's work on complaints, where she argues that the institution, the University fights back through bureaucracy as delay tactics. They're wondering if you can suggest ways to deal with all subvert this, or is this just something that we have to put up with? And I'm going to go to Jason for that one?

Jason Arday (Editor)  1:17:55

That's a great question. In terms of subverting it, I think it's difficult. It doesn't make it right, what I'm about to say, but in some respects, none of us into the academy blind. We're all making this kind of, we're having this invisible handshake with the neoliberal devil in some respects. So, we kind of know what we're getting into. And I guess it's always about once you're in that particular structure, what can you do to change it? How can you, I always think it's easier to work from within as a general rule of thumb. So, I do think in that regard, you can change things. But I guess it's kind of also being cognizant of the fact that these pillars are more than a reason why they do because the hill by, you know, inequality in all of its in all of its manifestations. I guess, once you're in this space, you do become a custodian in some respects of the academy. And it's incumbent upon us, and all stakeholders involved within those spaces to really think about how we democratize those spaces, how we look to dismantle some of those structures, and how we look to kind of really think about what change can look like, because, you know, the interchanging face of inequality, as as I mentioned before, is so constant to actually what change looks like today is quite different, what it looks like tomorrow. And so that agility, and that dexterity becomes hugely important in terms of how we conceptualize change. And I guess the more diverse range of ideas and perspectives you have, the more well equipped you are to be able to deal with that change, if that makes any sense.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:19:57

Thanks so much, Jason. I forgot to unmute myself I'm just going to jump on to the next questions, or there's quite a lot coming through, and we're almost at the end. So there's a question from Stephanie, in response to something stated earlier of published being an academic currency. Do you have any tips for how students can try to maintain their voice when completing academic writing? Please jump in anyone with an answer? Yep, go for it.

Jason Arday (Editor)  1:20:26

I was gonna say just briefly on that question, Delayna did this is what I was saying earlier, we are at a time now where that is celebrated. And that is encouraged. And honestly, it's something that is a recent phenomenon in the last four to five years. So I really would implore students to explore that and engage with that as much as possible, there's kind of a new wave and generation of academics coming through, that are using these kinds of storytelling mechanisms are using these kinds of First Person narratives, using the power of these different kinds of autobiographical methodologies to kind of illuminate people's experiences, and it's becoming more of a normative practice, and it ever has been. So again, I would implore people to kind of go with that, and really embrace it. Because yeah, there's never been a time where it's been as embraced, as it is now. And I guess that new generation of people coming through are also kind of, in a good way, if you can work out the gatekeepers of what is of what constraint is knowledge construction, you know, and you have people who are mereditch, if you know, Francesca Tarek, lots of people that we can we can name who who are now setting the rules for engagement in a more wide and inclusive way, which means that more and more people are going to be able to express themselves in that way. Sorry for jumping in.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:21:48

That's great. Does anyone else want to contribute to that? Francesca go for it.

Francesca Sobande (Author) She/Her  1:21:56

Yeah, sure. It's, it's, I guess, it's an in-response to earlier questions, and also just following the conversation in the chat. So, let's pick up on something. And it's it's a point that's been made to do that the material implications of some of the binaries that we'll be speaking about? And I think, absolutely, I do want to speak on behalf of everybody. But I think, you know, we're all absolutely in agreement. And in terms of acknowledging those material implications. So something I wanted to add to that conversation, which I think also connects to what Meredith was speaking about earlier on, is that, you know, with regards to these binaries, and whilst it might not be possible to, you know, dismantle the the binaries, simply by asking people to think differently simply by sharing the sorts of conversations we're having today, I think something that can be considered and can have very tangible impacts is ensuring that the people who are able to access resources because of these unfortunate binaries, and redistribute those resources, so thinking about what it means to access institutional resources in a way that doesn't serve simply means circulating those resources amongst the same few people who are probably in fairly financially secure situations within academia. How can individuals who benefit from these binaries and ensure that the resources they're accessing are shared on our contributed to different people in different places in ways that are essentially meant to be going towards the sort of world we're hoping for and addressing the sorts of inequalities we're speaking about. So, I just want to pick up on that point and say, that's something that can be done with regards to pushing for a better situation and challenging these binary notions of scholarship and activism, community individual. And something else I just wanted to mention, too, which hopefully relates to the overall conversation, and was thinking about accessibility with regards to academic publishing. And something that I really appreciated about this process was when a question was asked about, you know, will there be the option to have an open access chapter, it was such a straightforward process, there are no ifs, there are no buts. And I knew that these processes, I'm sure at the publishing side of stuff can be complicated for different reasons. But it was really refreshing to see and the commitment on Sage's behalf. And also, from the get go and the conversations about the book, we're starting to have really open conversations about the affordability and of the book, thinking about ensuring that this work was on the market and not as a 75 pounds academic textbook, which only libraries are going to be able to buy. So those are just two things I was thinking about with regards to the material implications of this overall discussion.

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:24:26

Just to add to what Francesca was saying, there will be at least one chapter from each book freely available online. So, if anyone wants to read it, they just need to follow the link to the webpage. And they can see I think it's chapter two or Francesca's I think, Tarek, you haven't yet chosen the chapter. But we'll we'll get a chapter up there. I'm going to ask a final question. So, a comment from B. Fareed in case anyone has any responses to the question of how publishers can better support scholars who are not in in a privileged position geographically, particularly those in the Global South, publishers need to establish systems to support these academics to pursue academic writing and publishing. Do you guys have any thoughts on this? Also, I just want to say we are a very global North cohort, but the series itself is very international, we do have people from outside, you know, the usual suspects in terms of countries also contributing those books will be out as kind of time goes on. But this is meant to be a very international series, which kind of gets past that global North kind of identity of academia and academic publishing. But yeah, if any of you guys have anything that you'd like to contribute to that

Tarek Younis (Author) He/Him  1:25:52

I guess I can just mention one thing, I think, with regards to that, and I think that just a positive example that I've seen, in terms of discussions on the war on terror, at least, you know, I think, one, one element that I've seen change over the years, is a sort of recognition, that the the war on terrorism is a global phenomenon, and that many nation states sort of employ, you know, counterterrorism strategies and policies in different ways, uniquely to their own situation. And I've seen more sort of, I guess, more international ways of sort of addressing global issues. And I think, publishers, you know, when they're interested in a particular subject, that has global global reach, I think really ought to engage and allow, you know, all these different voices come from across the world, you know, to speak down to that particular issue. You know, and I think there's so much we gained from looking at all these various localized issues together, you know, from different places in the world at the same time. And yeah, I'm just mentioning that as a positive example, actually, it's something that I think has really developed, you know, in a good way in the last, like, the last 5-10 years. So, certainly, yeah, I think a lot of issues definitely have global reach these days. We think about you know, the environment we think about whatever you under so many things that we're it's a small world, and we ought to always allow for it all these different voices to appear at the same time. Thank you. Does anyone else wants to give a very quick 32nd response to that question?

Delayna Spencer (Senior Commissioning Editor) She/Her  1:27:52

Okay, I'm going to end it there, then that seems like a very obvious time to say goodbye to everyone. I'm so sorry, to everyone whose questions we didn't get to there were a lot and we only had a very limited amount of time. But if anyone does want to know more about the series, or reach out with any proposals of their own, please do. You can reach out to me, I'd be happy to hear pitches and support. But I just want to say a huge thank you again to Francesca, Tarek, Meredith, and Jason, it has been so fantastic to work with all four of you. It's been a really beautiful process. It's been a really special one. And thank you so much for the time that you've given to this series launch as well. And thank you so much to everyone who was able to make it today. Again, we know, December is a busy time. So really appreciate it. And thank you Karen, for your words at the stop. Thanks